On this episode of The Long View, author, podcast host, and financial planner and head of growth for TFP Financial Planning, Dan Haylett, discusses how people can find what is right for them in retirement, what couples should consider when planning to retire, how retirees can give themselves the permission to spend on what matters, and more lessons for retirement planning from his new book, The Retirement You Didn’t See Coming.
Here are a few highlights from Haylett’s conversation with Morningstar’s Christine Benz and Amy Arnott.
How Couples Can Make a ‘My Plan, Your Plan, Our Plan’ for Retirement
Amy Arnott: Dan, we also wanted to talk to you about the whole topic of relationships, which is one of your five pillars of a thriving retirement. And you’ve worked extensively with couples on their retirement plans. And I’m curious, what kinds of questions should you be asking your partner or spouse as you’re both starting to think about retirement?
Dan Haylett: My experience suggests that any question is really good because a lot of them don’t actually ask any questions of one another. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve worked with some couples that have been very open about what they want to do and how they want to do it with one another before coming in and seeing me. But in general, I sit down with a couple and I’m like, have you two just met before you walked in here? Like, it doesn’t feel like you’ve ever had this discussion or know deeply what one another is thinking about this stage of life. So, any question is great.
However, I think what they should be really curious about is what this stage of life looks like for each other. What are the things that they would like to achieve? Do not assume that you want to achieve the same things. So, one of the exercises I try and do is create the kind of “my plan, your plan, our plan” type scenario. And I do this through various sketches. But the easiest one is to do that Venn diagram, and you get them to go, what are the kinds of things that you want to feel and do? What are the kinds of things that the other spouse wants to feel and do? And what are the things that you want to feel and do together? And just to open up that conversation, I think, is so vital because you often get people who either sacrifice their own thoughts for the other person, or they have very different thoughts, and both of those come out in that meeting. “I’ll just do what he or she wants to do,” which doesn’t feel great. And the other one is when one of them goes, “Well, I want to travel around Europe.” And the other one goes, “I want to look after my grandchild and tend to my garden.” And they both look at each other like, “Gee, we’ve got a problem here.” And who’s going to give in? Which one do we want to do?
So, I think understanding before any buttons are pushed to feel like you are going to give yourself more time and maybe phase into retirement or even the hard stop. And feeling comfortable that it’s OK to have three journeys in retirement. It’s OK for you to have your separate things that you’d like to do. And it’s OK then, and vital, to have the things that you want to do together. Because for the first time in your marriage, you’re going to be spending daytime together. Really, unless you’ve been ill or you’ve been working from home as a couple over the past few years, this is a real litmus test for that changing dynamic of a relationship and being truthful about that and having those conversations and asking curious questions about one another’s wants and desires and dreams and fears is really going to make each other understand about what this phase of life looks like.
Why Early Covid Days Could Be a Litmus Test for Couples Planning to Retire
Christine Benz: Speaking of a litmus test, the retirement researcher Michael Finke made the point to me that the early covid days were a good litmus test for couples. And his point was, “Did you enjoy that time with your spouse or did you drive each other crazy?” Do you think that’s a good mental reference point for people as they’re thinking through what this phase might be like with more togetherness?
Haylett: I do. And I think it’s a really good reference point. It can be a little bit strange because it was such a strange time. It wasn’t as clear-cut as you’re home now and everything is fine. We were forced to be within—you couldn’t be at home and then nip out for a coffee for two hours and see your friends to give yourself a break from whatever you need to give yourself a break from. So, I do think it was a litmus test about how we can interact and spend time with one another, how we can respect each other’s space. And without being too stereotypical here, it’s definitely women who have been very, very good, much better than men, at creating better, longer-lasting relationships, deeper relationships.
Men’s relationships on the whole are much more superficial and potentially more work-oriented. And what that’s given—and I know that’s nuanced and it has changed quite a bit—is you feel like you kind of invade on each other’s lives. Let’s just go for the whole stereotypical thing to make it easy. The man is home and says, “Do you want to go out for lunch on Tuesday?” And the wife will tell him, “Well, no, that Tuesday is when I go out with my friends. I’ve been doing that for 10 years. You just haven’t known about it because you’ve been at work.” That kind of thing. And so it’s to understand and respect each other’s structure, each other’s anchors, and to understand and respect that everyone has their own things that they want to do. And this is why I think it’s really interesting to be comfortable in each other’s company and comfortable in silence. If you try and force the issue with this, then I think it really does start to highlight some issues. This is about making sure that you can respect each other’s time and space.
Arnott: I think it could be helpful to realize that you don’t have to spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week together, and it’s OK to have time by yourself or time with friends in addition to time with your spouse, and have a more balanced way of spending your time.
Haylett: In fact, I would say, please don’t spend 24 hours, seven days a week with each other. It’s not that you shouldn’t. It’s that you absolutely shouldn’t. And that won’t lead to the positive outcomes that you want. And again, let’s go back to the leisure thing. If you want to enjoy time away with your spouse, then time away with your spouse will be exactly the same. It might just be in a different country. It might be a bit hot or a bit colder. That’s the problem. If you’re spending all of this time together every day, when you decide to go away, the impact of leisure time and holiday time actually doesn’t have anywhere near the impact that you thought it might have. In fact, it has the opposite. I’ve seen people come home and be really, really deflated because it was just like being at home, just in another country. That’s why it’s really important to make sure there is still this magic time together that you have. And there are still things that you can talk about and bring to the conversation because you’ve been doing different things with different people. And that just keeps that relationship energized and fresh.
Arnott: I’ve heard the expression, “For better or for worse, but not for lunch.”
Haylett: There you go. I love that. Absolutely.
For Better or for Worse, but Not Necessarily for Retirement
Arnott: What’s your advice about retirement dates for couples? We’ve heard that two people retiring at the same time could be too much change all at once. Do you agree with that? And what kind of advice do you have regarding the timing of retirement for a couple?
Haylett: You think of the modern-day retirement, again, step out of the stereotypical thing here. More and more couples will retire with very, very similar emotional baggage or problems. It is absolutely more common now than not that this knowledge and wisdom work with identity and purpose, and so on, is both sides of the relationship. So, if that happens all at once, that’s a tricky environment to probably navigate. And I also think it’s really important for every individual to have their own timeline and to not sacrifice that timeline for one another. It is a real challenge. But I think if you decide to retire at the same time, one person out of that relationship is going to be on the back foot from the word go, because they probably have stepped away from work at a time that they didn’t actually want to feel ready for. And they might have unfinished business, or they might love what they do.
So, I think it’s not only just too much change, I think there could be an element of resentment or regret from one of them that feels like they might have been forced into retirement, because again, the brochure tells you to retire together and have long, happy lives sitting on a beach, sipping cocktails. You need to do this together. It comes back to that point, and you don’t. This is about your individual purposes, individual identities, and individual timeline. Like I said about the Venn diagram thing, on one half of it, it might be continuing to work for a little bit, but I’ve got more time off. So in the middle bit, we can do some more stuff that we want to enjoy together. I think it’s dangerous for people to retire at the same time, unless it’s absolutely the right thing for them. But, in general, I don’t see that.